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Original: 12/22/2008 4:48 PM
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Monday, December 22, 2008

 

I want to re-visit two Biblical passages that are typically cited against same-sex relationships: Romans 1:18-32 and the creation narrative in Genesis.

 

I was reading comments somebody left me back in the summer, and I came across this:

 

I will concede that it is possible that he [Paul] is listing various religious practices in chapter 1 of Romans, but I don't feel it is definitely so. The reason being, Paul is not that kind of writer.  His letters often have convoluted clauses and subclauses, even subtopics in the middle of sentences, making it nearly impossible to discern whether two consecutive statements are directly related, or if they will both be tied in 4 paragraphs in the future.

 

This person was suggesting that Paul's writing style tended to be so all over the place - so random - that we cannot definitively know whether Paul's reference to same-sex activity was limited to a cultic sex. I disagree strongly. I think that it is obvious that Paul directly linked the same-sex activity to idolatry. I invite people to carefully look at the passage for themselves here.

 

In verse 21, Paul refers to

 

they [who] knew God, [but] glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened  

 

Paul continues describing the aforementioned "they" in verse 22:

 

 professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

 

Wait, who is "they"? The reference to "they" refers the same people spoken of in verse 21. He hasn't changed the subject yet.

 

Verse 23 continues describing the people in verse 22. Here are verses 22 and 23 next to each other:

 

[v. 22] Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,  [v. 23] And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things.

 

So verses 22 and 23 are both refer to the same people spoken of in verse 21. Paul hasn't changed the subject yet.  

 

Now we come to verse 24:

 

[v 24] Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves.

 

Who is the unqualified "them" in verse 24? The word "them" here refers to the very same people in verse 23, who are the same people in verses 21 and 22. Paul hasn't changed the subject yet.  

 

Now we come to verse 25:

 

Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen

 

What does Paul mean by the word "who" in the beginning of this verse? Paul is continuing his description of the people in verse 24, and verse 24 refers to the same people in verses 21-23.  

 

Some people might think that Paul's use of "amen" implies a change in topic. However, the wording in the very next verse (v 26) shows that he hasn't changed the subject yet. Here is verse 26:

 

 For THIS CAUSE God gave THEM up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature.

 

Again, who is "them" that Paul is referring to? It must be the same people spoken of in verses 21-25. That explains why Paul says "for this cause". What cause? The "cause" he mentions here is the idolatry in verses 23-25.  

 

So Paul does not change the subject between verse 21 and verse 27. He is talking about the same people. The passage describes these particular people as engaging in specific forms of idolatry and engaging in certain sexual activities that were "para phusis", which is often (badly) translated as "unnatural".

 

"Para" meant "beyond" and "phusis" had cultural connotations. For example, Paul also said that "phusis" teaches us that men should not have long hair. If phusis means "natural" then it would be unnatural for men to have long hair. Paul also described God as going against phusis for including the gentiles.

 

Phusis could mean customary for a culture. In Jewish culture at that time, it was uncustomary to "waste" semen by having non-reproductive sex.

 

It's possible (though I'm not certain) that phusis could also refer to a personal inclination, like somebody who hates dogs adopting a dog. From this perspective, it would be against phusis for a heterosexual man to have sex with another man.

 

This background ties into the context of idolatry. It just so happens that in Paul's era, there were priests called galli, and these galli had sex with male worshippers in the temples. There were also female galli who used artificial penises to penetrate men, which definitely would have been beyond phusis. Townsley has a lengthy article here. Townsley also argues that the structure of Paul's letter uses parallelism. Specifically, Townsley argues that verses 26-27 (the sexual verses) were meant to parallel verses 23-25 (the idolatry verses).

 

Verse 26 is usually thought to condemn lesbian sex, but it is not explicitly stated. The parallel between verses 26 and 27 is that both sex acts are "para phusis". Verse 26 refers to some kind of sexual activity that is para phusis, and 27 refers to men who engaged in activity that was "likewise" para phusis by having sex with each other. But this doesn't mean that verse 26 refers to lesbianism, and indeed the lesbian interpretation was not explicitly accepted by the church fathers until the 4th century (and was explicitly rejected by church fathers beforehand).

 

Interestingly, the galli were sometimes called "malakoi", which Paul condemned in Corinthians 6:9 (along with the "arsenokoitai", which I won't discuss right now)

 

As I said earlier, I think it is obvious that Paul was not condemning male-male sex per se.

 

In my next post I will re-visit the creation narrative

 

 Posted 12/22/2008 4:48 PM - 328 Views - 22 eProps - 19 comments

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That is an interesting perspective.
Posted 12/22/2008 5:15 PM by TheTheologiansCafe Xanga True Member Xanga Lifetime Member - reply

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I care little whether Paul specifically condemned same-sex relationships or not. If you can find somewhere that Scripture specifically says they are allowed (in contrast to earlier Scriptures that specifically forbid it) then I might consider that God changed his mind. I won't hold my breath.
Posted 12/22/2008 5:31 PM by radicalramblings Xanga True Member Xanga Lifetime Member - reply

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It's still wrong. It's forbidden in the Bible, many places.
Posted 12/22/2008 5:41 PM by NightCometh Xanga True Member Xanga Premium Member - reply

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I agree.  I think Paul was saying that the homosexuality, as with many other sins indicates idolatry.  In this case, among others, the idol of self, pleasure and possibly even rebellion.   
Posted 12/22/2008 5:43 PM by WoundedScapegoat - reply

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@radicalramblings -  I was not trying to cover *every* single text cited against same-sex relationships. My only point in this entry is that Romans 1 should not be cited as an argument against SS relationships. Whether or not other passages condemn all SS relationships is a separate topic that is not covered in this entry.  

You asked for explicit Biblical affirmation of SS relationships. I think a case could be made, but it would be too ambiguous to convince most people. But I also think that we don't need *explicit* Biblical support. The Bible never explicitly approves of caffeine, yoga, masturbation, oral sex, or full contact sports... but that doesn't mean those activities are immoral.  

You could counter by arguing that "the Bible never forbids those acts either, but it does forbid SS relationships". But my point here is that SS relationships would not automatically be immoral simply because the Bible never approves of them - i.e. the absence of approval, by itself, does not imply the presence of condemnation. So I don't think that Christians should cite the absence of explicit approval. Also, I disagree with the idea that the Bible forbids *all* SS relationships for all time - but again, that wasn't supposed to be the topic of this entry.  

That being said, I do think that there are good reasons for affirming SS relationships. For example, I recommend reading the following article http://www.gaychristian.net/justins_view.php -- scroll down to "responding to the prooftexts"

best wishes to you  

- Pat  

Posted 12/22/2008 5:48 PM by desertraindrop86 - reply

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@NightCometh - Hi there. As I told radicalramblings, my *only* point in this entry is that Romans 1 should not be cited as an argument against SS relationships. Whether or not the Bible forbids SS relationships per se in other places is *not* the topic of this entry. This particular entry is focused on Romans 1. In my mext post I will discuss the creation narrative ("adam and eve, not adam and steve"). After that I may discuss other texts. One issue at a time.

Posted 12/22/2008 5:51 PM by desertraindrop86 - reply

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@desertraindrop86 - 



While it is not the FOCUS, it is a symptom of degradation.
Posted 12/22/2008 5:52 PM by NightCometh Xanga True Member Xanga Premium Member - reply

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@Koolou - Paul describes specific idolatrous activities that corresponded to the galli, who just so happened to use SS intercourse to worship their goddess. I think Paul was referring to SS activity that was used to worship a false god, as opposed to *all* SS activity. Also, did you read Townsley's paper? Townsley shows that the idolatry led to the SS activity, not the other way around. This makes sense because SS activity was often used as a form of worship in certain cults. Being in certain cults - worshipping the goddess - often required SS activity.

Posted 12/22/2008 5:55 PM by desertraindrop86 - reply

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@NightCometh - No offense intended, but you misunderstood my point. I gently suggest that you re-read my post. I am not simply claiming that SS activity "is not the focus". That would be a very weak argument.

Posted 12/22/2008 5:56 PM by desertraindrop86 - reply

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@TheTheologiansCafe - Thanks Dan

Posted 12/22/2008 6:04 PM by desertraindrop86 - reply

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Paul had a peculiar writing style... I am no longer convinced of the veracity of his epistles, actually. :/ I am a Christian, but I'm more interested in the words of God and the teachings of Christ than in all that stuff Paul had to say.

P.S. You don't seem contentious to me. :)

Posted 12/22/2008 6:17 PM by ClockworkBunny Xanga Lifetime Member - reply

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@ClockworkBunny - thank you :)

Posted 12/22/2008 6:19 PM by desertraindrop86 - reply

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@desertraindrop86 - I think you are trying to read too much into it, and using speculation and conjecture regarding specific examples as well.  Legalism is the 'leaven of the pharisees' Jesus warned beleivers against. 

Posted 12/22/2008 6:37 PM by WoundedScapegoat - reply

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No where in Scripture is Homosexuality promoted. many places it is called sin. It is about that simple.
Posted 12/22/2008 7:24 PM by prophet_21 Xanga True Member - reply

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@prophet_21 - Hi prophet_21. I actually addressed your points earlier, so I will copy and paste my response (with some minor changes). I hope you don't mind that I am repeating what I said earlier. Here is what I said earlier:

I was not trying to cover *every* single text cited against same-sex relationships. My only point in this entry is that Romans 1 should not be cited as an argument against SS relationships. Whether or not other passages condemn all SS relationships is a separate topic that is not covered in this entry.  

You suggested that the Bible never explicitly affirms SS relationships. I think a case could be made, but it would be too ambiguous to convince most people, so I won't go there. But I also think that we don't need *explicit* Biblical support. The Bible never explicitly approves of caffeine, yoga, masturbation, oral sex, or full contact sports... but that doesn't mean those activities are immoral.  

You could counter by arguing that "the Bible never forbids those acts either, but it does forbid SS relationships". But my point here is that SS relationships would not automatically be immoral simply because the Bible never approves of them - i.e. the absence of approval, by itself, does not imply the presence of condemnation. So I don't think that Christians should cite the absence of explicit approval. Also, I disagree with the idea that the Bible forbids *all* SS relationships for all time - but again, that wasn't supposed to be the topic of this entry.  

That being said, I do think that there are good reasons for affirming SS relationships. For example, I recommend reading the following article http://www.gaychristian.net/justins_view.php -- scroll down to "responding to the prooftexts"

Posted 12/22/2008 7:31 PM by desertraindrop86 - reply

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interesting to say the least. Im not very christian at all - i was brought up it, but as i discovered myself i decided it wasnt for me - but i get the gist of it.

Personally, if there is a god, i dont think he gives a rats ass about if you slept with a penis or not. I think he cares more about the selflessness toward that person. Of course, its easily refutable but hey - the higher honor, no? I dont ever recall pauls writing to be all that hard to get, but then again, ive never read through the entire bible from cover to cover. I claim no knowledge of it. Although i suppose he without sin should be first to cast his stone at anyone for their sin.

Very interesting post - thats just my two cents. Thanks to Dan for recommending it to me.
Posted 12/22/2008 7:53 PM by trynstopme Xanga True Member - reply

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I respectfully disagree. Romans 1 pictures a downward progression caused by people rejecting God. Paul argues that these people (technically he's referring to godless Gentiles since chapter 2 accuses religious Jews) knew God (or at least knew of Him) based on the evidence of creation. They should at least have seen His "eternal power and godhead", yet they chose not to, leaving them without excuse.

Because of that rejection of God, He gave them over to various sorts of idolatry and perversion, including homosexuality. Paul isn't equating the two, nor is he talking about same sex relationships during idolatry. That may have happened but there is no evidence that the text refers specifically to that.

I see you referring to cultural context; however, I have several problems with your interpretation:
* Romans wasn't written specifically to the Jews, so to appeal to the Jewish culture's idea of conserving semen seems a stretch
* Paul is building his greatest legal case, proving man is sinful and deserves God's punishment. Romans is the crown jewel of the New Testament. To lock this passage into such a narrow and specific interpretation is counter intuitive.
* This is the longest list of sins in the NT. Paul teaches that rejecting God leads to all sorts of sin and lists many of them. It's too narrow an interpretation to claim this only refers to same sex relationships in idolatrous practices.

There are many passages throughout the Bible that argue against same sex relationships. People try to explain these away through various means. After awhile it becomes "protesting too much" (to paraphrase the Bard). The Golden Rule of Bible Interpretation is "If the plain sense of Scripture makes good sense, seek no other sense." If you sit the average person in front of those passages and ask him what they mean, they will almost universally understand that God prohibits and condemns same sex relationships.
Posted 12/22/2008 10:13 PM by SpiderDad Xanga True Member - reply

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I guess I'll be one of the few to commend this post. More specific than other stuff I've read in the past, so thanks.
Posted 12/22/2008 11:32 PM by thirst2 Xanga True Member - reply

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@SpiderDad - Thank you for the thoughtful and kind reply. We disagree with each other, but I respect you.

>> Because of that rejection of God, He gave them over to various sorts of idolatry and perversion, including homosexuality. Paul isn't equating the two, nor is he talking about same sex relationships during idolatry.<<

I disagree. Did you read Townsley's paper? He discusses evidence for parallelism, so I recommend checking out his article. Apart from that, I think that one could at least make a case for being agnostic - i.e. one could claim that it could go *either* way. Paul refers to people engaging in specific forms of idolatry (which btw matched galli activities), and then a few verses later says that the same people were engaging in sexual activity that was para phusis, including male-male sex. Well, that description fits the galli very well, and the Romans were familiar with them. So as I see it, it could at least go either way.

>> Romans wasn't written specifically to the Jews, so to appeal to the Jewish culture's idea of conserving semen seems a stretch <<

"Para phusis" frequently referred to non-reproductive sex in contemporary literature, and it was the background that Paul was brought up in.  Later in Romans 11:24 Paul says that God went beyond phusis, which shows that Paul is using the word with cultural connotation. And in Corinthians 11 Paul says that phusis teaches us that men should not have long hair. It's hard to define, but it could refer to the customs of that time, or perhaps what was expected. So we have to keep in mind Paul's background and how he used the word elsewhere. And as I said earlier, the Romans were familiar with the galli, so the association with idolatry would have made at least some readers think of them. Again, please read Townsley's article.

You may also find the following article interesting: http://www.geocities.com/pharsea/NatureAndPassion.html

Just to clarify, there are actually two separate issues here and I don't want people to get confused. Here are the two issues:

1. we have the issue of how to translate and understand "phusis"

2. we also have the issue of the galli and the possibility that Paul was describing them - the evidence for this view is not dependent on how we view "phusis", but instead rests on the evidence for parallelism, the prominence of the galli, and other factors.

So we could actually drop and forget about the word "phusis" and just stick to the other points. Perhaps I should have done that in the first place.


>> There are many passages throughout the Bible that argue against same sex relationships. <<

Please read my earlier reply to radicalramblings, who made the same argument

best wishes

- Pat

Posted 12/23/2008 12:55 AM by desertraindrop86 - reply


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"I want to believe so badly in a truth beyond our own, hidden and obscured from all but the most sensitive of eyes; in the endless procession of souls; in what cannot and will not be destroyed. I want to believe we are unaware of God's eternal recompense and sadness; that we cannot see his truth; that that which is born still lives and cannot be buried in the cold Earth, but only waits to be born again at God's behest - where an ancient starlight we lay, in repose." -- David Duchovny

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